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On Tap Podcast
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On Tap Podcast
Quality Erections: The Uncensored Story of Sherman Buildings
Quality erections aren't just what Sherman Buildings creates—they're the foundation of a marketing strategy that's transformed rural construction since 1976. In this conversation with CEO Steve Kelling, we discover why authenticity might be the most powerful business tool you're not fully utilizing.
Behind those eyebrow-raising billboards and viral social media posts lies a thoughtful approach to transparency that defies construction industry norms. "If you're just a blur in the background, you don't get that opportunity to show people who you really are," Kelling explains, revealing why Sherman Buildings chooses to embrace rather than hide the everyday chaos of running a construction business. This philosophy extends beyond customer acquisition to creating a workplace where employees stay for decades rather than months.
The family-owned company doesn't rely on nepotism—instead, they've cultivated an environment where respect must be earned through competence rather than connections. "Power isn't something that can be given to anybody. It's taken," Kelling shares, offering profound insights into leadership dynamics that apply far beyond construction.
We dive deep into the evolution of post-frame buildings from simple pole barns to sophisticated barn dominiums, exploring how financing challenges initially slowed adoption before these structures became mainstream. Kelling describes building his own barn dominium in the early 2000s when the concept was still considered unusual, shedding light on how Sherman helped pioneer what has become one of rural construction's fastest-growing trends.
Whether you're fascinated by family business dynamics, construction innovations, or simply appreciate straight-talking wisdom from someone who's weathered decades of industry changes, this episode delivers powerful takeaways about building something meant to last—both physically and organizationally. Subscribe now to hear more conversations with business leaders who aren't afraid to share how they've built success from the ground up.
0:00 Introduction to Steve Kelling
0:25 Sherman's Edgy Marketing Strategy
4:20 Social Media and Business Authenticity
8:00 Family Business Dynamics
16:25 Pole Buildings and Barn Dominiums
21:40 Evolution of Materials and Techniques
32:30 Building Legacy and Opportunity
41:15 Life Outside the Family Business
47:25 Parting Knowledge and Career Advice
Check out our sticker packs at OnTapWithTheBoiz.com
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of the ONTAP podcast we have with us joining today local man, myth legend, steve Kelling, ceo of Sherman Buildings in Mora, minnesota. Steve, thank you for joining us today. Wow, what an introduction.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me. I have no idea what to expect today, but I'm sure that it's going to be fun.
Speaker 1:No doubt it'll be fun. So the first thing that I wanted to bring up was that Sherman is known for their edgy marketing. I mean, if you live in Minnesota you have seen your quality erections billboard. You have sayings like erect to protect. You have a sign on your shop outside that says big deck energy. How did these things even get put into play? And was there ever a point where someone was like maybe we shouldn't do that? Was anyone nervous about how it was going to be received?
Speaker 2:well, all of the other good words were used already, so we wanted to find uh words that weren't overplayed already and to get to quality erections. That was probably a couple of decades of slightly different phrases. That kind of culminated.
Speaker 2:Was there anything that was like this is too risque, Like we can't go there Every once in a while, and there's certainly been staff and family members throughout the years who have not approved or currently don't necessarily approve, but it's you have to get noticed for somebody to for people to find you and to take the time to find out. Okay, who are these people really? What, what is their real story? And if you're just a blur in the background, you don't get that opportunity to show people who you really are Totally.
Speaker 1:Do you ever get people that are negatively receiving this? Oh for sure, where they're like. Oh, that company.
Speaker 2:Very small minority. If it was overwhelming anger and disapproval, we'd probably uh, you know we might change, but uh, maybe once a month somebody. I'll send an email, um, and I'm we're not sure what their perspective is or what you know they're thinking directly, but um, uh, yeah, for for every one of those, we get at least a hundred to a thousand people who are like that. You know, driving by your billboards is the highlight of my commute every day. That's how.
Speaker 3:I get through life? Oh, absolutely, I mean I think especially people from Pine City we're on 35 all the time I pass billboards every single day. I don't even notice them, but your guys' billboards, they just stick out. It's like every time you get a little bit of a laugh and I like how there's a couple different versions that you get to see and I, it's fucking genius, I love it.
Speaker 2:I mean, the job of marketing is to inspire, right? So when somebody didn't realize that they needed a pole shed, and they see one of our billboards, find out who we are and realize you know, I've been wasting my life away, living in the city and not being a landowner in the country where I can get a pool shed, and it completely changes their lives. I mean, we're doing our job, we're changing the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one erection at a time. One erection at a time.
Speaker 3:Exactly With the age of social media and advertising through that, would you still say that billboards are key to getting your name out to the people?
Speaker 2:Well, because it's a more limited resource. Online, with TikTok or Instagram, there's an unlimited advertising space, really for attention. Well, on the freeway, there are only so many billboards, there's only so much space. So if you can acquire a billboard or get a lease on one, so if you can acquire a billboard or get a lease on one, you've now got an opportunity in a limited media to share your message with. So that's why I think it is still relevant, more relevant than newspaper, more relevant than just about anything else.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because driving is never going to go away.
Speaker 2:People are going to like newspaper.
Speaker 3:I have never bought a newspaper in my life and I probably never will, just from being in the generation I'm in. But I'm going to be driving forever.
Speaker 1:I'm going to be listening back to this in my hover car five years from now, and being like this didn't age well.
Speaker 2:The questions that we have about. Should we do this have to do with, like our billboards, trying to find all of our different billboards and take a selfie with it, you know, because that could involve, you know, somebody driving an opportunity? So, that's where we draw the line.
Speaker 1:Like we don't want anybody to get hurt on the highway trying to win a contest. So now, speaking of marketing, I guess you guys have moved to more of a digital approach to your marketing as well, and you guys have started to have a bigger presence online on social media. As we sit right here, you guys just had a clip get 3.7 million views, and now I guess my question for you is, in construction in general, why do you think that it seems to be taboo that people don't put themselves out there more?
Speaker 1:Uh, like they're personal out there more of like from a the business perspective, I guess.
Speaker 2:Well, I think there's this, uh, this counterintuitive thought that if you share too much about who you are and how you know what your personal formula to success is, that somebody might steal it. And so I think that's what people try to hide who they are. We want you to see our brand. We want you to see, you know, the select information that we have on our website. We want you to see our product and we want to control everything the chaos that's in the background, that it takes to happen to deliver the product. The reality is reasonable. People realize that chaos is everywhere. We're all living in constant chaos. At the end of the day, it's can you get the job done, can you produce a nice product, can you be a service provider that people can trust and rely on, but there's always going to be disaster in the background. There's always going to be something that's happening, and so I think that a lot of businesses, you know, aren't, you know, willing to show what is it the?
Speaker 2:phrase you know how the sausage is made, but it's all made the same. It's all a shit show, but at the end of the day, that's what we, as uh owners and managers are doing is trying to control the chaos and bring it to a point where here it is, here's the final product, delivered as perfectly, as pleasing to you as we possibly can you do you think that that viral clips like something like this that's totally unrelated to the Sherman brand?
Speaker 1:There's no logo in it, there's no nothing. Do you think that this translates to more business for?
Speaker 2:you guys. I think that when we try to go after things too directly and our focus is too much to the point, it's sniffed out as unauthentic and ignored. Too salesy, too salesy, and so no, we want to show to us. It's as much about showing potential staff members, crew members, admin who we are as it is to customers. We all work at different places for different reasons. Well, a lot of it is the environment, the culture we want to be a great place to work at. So if we put out a video that's about life working at Sherman, that is as valuable to us as a video that's appealing directly to a customer and is going to produce a sale today, that's never going to happen. It's a depth of exposure and knowledge and awareness of who we are yeah.
Speaker 1:So brand awareness is, I guess, more of a priority than it would be to like. Here's who we are. Buy our pole shed we're definitely not an impulse buy.
Speaker 2:You don't drive by, see a billboard and go. You're damn right, I need a pole shed. Put me on the list. It's a very long process, especially for somebody who's building a new home or trying to acquire land. It can take months, it can take years of planning. Yes, there's always the people that are way ahead of that. Um, yes, there's always the people that have been, you know, that are way ahead of that. And now we might be on their list to call this weekend because they're at the stage where now's the time to start getting quotes and start talking to talking to companies.
Speaker 3:But, um, no, it's, it's, it's all about planting seeds and that long, that long exposure and recognition having a pull shed is not something you just need, that you want to do or typically need to do. It's not something that someone just makes a rash decision on, and there's a lot of companies that can give them a product. But at least with your company, they're able to see who's going to be working on their project, who they're working with in the office. You can see, you get a vibe of what's going on with the company and just get to know your company a little bit better, and so it makes complete sense that people are just more comfortable with your company in general because they just can find out more about you instead of just a website with pictures of past projects and that's about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a very scary thing to expose yourself in any situation. It's a very scary thing to expose yourself in any situation. We all want to have these facades and we all want to paint this picture that we want the rest of the world to see us by. But again, rational thinking people know that that's not real. We are real people. We're a real family. We have real family issues, just like everybody else does. We have real employee issues, from Mother Nature to the government, regulations and codes and insurance and financing and every possible thing that everybody else is struggling with.
Speaker 2:Everyday life and everything that we do. Yeah, that's what we have, that's who we are as a company too. But again, at the end of the day, everything that we do, yeah, that's what we have, that's who we are as a company too. But again, uh, at the end of the day, if you're not, um, uh, creating an environment where the entire team has the same goal and they all want to work together, like, we have a very long tenure, not very, not, not, not very much turnover at our organization. So, every time, we do something and we learn from it and we make it better. We maintain that knowledge for decades by not having rapid turnover and having to start that process all over again. So we're real people and you want to come see what it's like in the kitchen.
Speaker 3:You know.
Speaker 2:be our guest, Watch us on social media or stop by our office.
Speaker 3:Mic'd up.
Speaker 2:Mondays Walk up to my office and we'll just hang out. You can see what I do. Just hang out. You can see what I do all day I mean, you can see how the sausage is made exactly, and I mean I obviously think it's fun. I'm sure most people get bored after a few minutes of wow, your job is almost as horrible as mine is, but yeah yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1:Well, part of that too is like the dynamic of everyone that works there. A lot of it is family. So how do you guys in your organization like like uh, you know, navigate that whole landscape of there being a unique dynamic between, like, the people that you're around are also your family members?
Speaker 2:it doesn't seem to work out very well for for most families that attempt to do it, and so I mean, I really don't know because? Do they all just listen to me? And then you know, so that reduces a lot of conflict? Yeah, no, they, no, they all argue with me because I come up with a thousand ideas a day and 999.9 of them get rejected. And it's total honesty, right. Nobody's going to say, yeah, that's a good idea if they don't actually think that it is. I think it's respect, it's holding each other accountable and just all having the same goals. But we don't have personalities that mimic each other either. Every family member is different, has different interests within the company, different areas, departments that they're passionate about. So you know, that's just luck, right, that we don't have two people that are want to be doing exactly the same thing. So that helps a lot. I mean, I wouldn't recommend it, you know, to anybody just because of statistically it doesn't.
Speaker 2:it doesn't work out and for whatever reason it works out for us.
Speaker 1:I've noticed that in my time spent over there that I've always thought it was very interesting. Like your kids call you Steve, you call your kids by their first name. There's no mom, dad, aunt, uncle, whatever. It's everyone's first name. Is that intentional or is that just outside of work?
Speaker 2:Probably is because we typically spend more time together at work and so we don't use those types of words at work, and then does it bleed over into personal life too Probably but not all the time. If it's Christmas and we're taking a lot of time off and hanging out a lot, then I will actually hear the word dad a lot.
Speaker 2:And then it's like we go back to work after the, and then it's like we go back to work, you know, after the holidays, and it's like steve okay we're back to work now, so it's it's different hats I think it's probably a subconscious, just to avoid discomfort for employees yeah, totally have to listen to somebody saying dad you know or uncle you know all the time yeah um, and that's.
Speaker 1:It's not like a hard rule or anything yeah, with and with any family dynamic in any business, there's always going to be some weird contention around like this person has a better opportunity because of their last name or because of who they're related to and I've noticed that's one thing with sherman that doesn't apply. If you're a good worker and you do a good job at what you do, you're going to move up ahead of someone else just because of their last name. Now, obviously this is intentional, but how have you guys made this conscious decision to be like? You know, obviously we can't pick favorites if this is going to be a successful company.
Speaker 2:I mean'm sure there is. I um, I mean it would be silly to to say that, um, that every single family member has earned their position. I'm I'm sure that there are, you know, circumstances where somebody got fast-tracked into an opportunity but at the end of the day, if they're not respected by their uh, their co-workers and by the people that they're supposed to lead, they're just going to fail. They're just going by their co-workers and by the people that they're supposed to lead. They're just going to fail, they're just going to wash out anyway.
Speaker 2:You know, power isn't something that can be given to anybody. It's taken, like it or not, sometimes in history very brutally. But power, you know, you can't be ordained with power, at least not to last, maybe in an election, you know, until the next cycle. But I mean out there in the real world, if you want people to follow you, take direction, not ignore you, not talk shit behind your back. I mean you have to earn that, regardless of what your last name is. You know, probably a hundred times in my career somebody's asked for a promotion of authority and power. And it's like dude if you want it just fucking take it.
Speaker 2:Just do it. And the leaders that are at Sherman right now are not people that were prompted or teed up to do that. They just they just took it and the rest of us were like that's fucking awesome. Hey, everybody else see what he just did there. If you want that job title, just take it. And if you do and nobody follows you, you're gone. Yeah, it's just not going to work. Anyways, you weren't meant for the position.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can't, you can't. If you can't prove that you can do it, then what's the special formula for that.
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, you have to be knowledgeable, obviously, but you have to give a lot of respect in order to, in order to get it back Right. And so the people that figure out a formula that gets people to follow them. I mean cult of personality. Some people have it naturally, some people learn from mistakes and cultivate it within themselves. But, yeah, that is all of life, what you want, you have to take.
Speaker 1:For those that don't know what is Sherman Buildings and what do you do so post-frame construction.
Speaker 2:Back in the day they were called pole barns or pole sheds. Uh, then for a while it was real, uh popularly to call them uh post frame buildings. Uh, I, I like barns, uh sheds. That that's what we build. We build sheds for your stuff, uh, in a lot, of, lot of circumstances, your, if you have a home with an attached garage, it's pretty full with your uh commuter cars, uh your christmas boxes, decorations all of that your stuff yeah, the other things that, oh, I'm gonna get to that box someday, you know, 10 years from now, you're gonna throw it in a fucking dumpster.
Speaker 2:That's that's what's in your garage, right? Uh, the shed is for all the other cool stuff your four-wheeler, your boat, your rv, your camper, your motorcycle, that you know restoration project that you're working on. That's by far the majority of our work. Um, a lot of, uh, barn companies do build livestock agricultural buildings. We do some, but in our particular geography where we're at, there's just not a ton of that like there is in other areas but we do some commercial, light industrial and a lot of homes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the barn dominiums, barn homes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's the new trend these these days.
Speaker 2:It is it is uh, and it's taken a long time to get here. So I built myself, um, my first one for in the early 2000s, uh, and I remember going to the appliance store and and my wife and I are picking out, you know, refrigerator and washer and dryer and all the stuff for the kitchen. And I've known the dude for most of my life and he looks at me and says, steve, I can't install a washer and dryer on a dirt floor. What the fuck are you talking? I'm going to have concrete and then I'm gonna put, you know, tile on top of that. When was this, uh, this early 2000s?
Speaker 1:so this is before.
Speaker 2:It was like a common, yeah, yeah like, like I did it because it just made sense to me. I build sheds, I insulate them all the time, usually in in like a workshop or a commercial environment. We're putting steel on the inside uh, walls and ceiling, but it's the same insulation, it's the same vapor barrier, it's the same hvac systems, it's the same electrical. It's the same kitchens, it's the same everything. Just put drywall on and put carpet or tile or velvet nice flooring down how was that, how was that received?
Speaker 1:for people like what are you? Yeah?
Speaker 2:yeah, they thought I was crazy, um, because it had been being done, but it was like done for hunting shacks or you know, just very, very rare, or it was taking an actual 100, 150 year old barn and and and building it into a man cave kind of thing, so it it wasn't super popular. And then one of my coworkers did the same thing and then, onesie, twosie, you know, they just started popping up and at the time we're building just regular conventional homes, basement block foundations, which you see every day. Customers would walk in and they would ask they would act embarrassed, asking the question. You know that was a really nice shed. Yeah, yeah, blah, blah, blah. You know, do people ever live in those? Yeah, dude, I do.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But they'd heard of it. But to say it out loud, you know, they felt silly asking about it like whether it was a real thing. And then, as it started to become more popular, we were starting to transition from conventional home construction to post-frame, to barn dominiums. But the financial world wasn't latching onto it. It was seen the same as an old manufactured home, like an old trailer house.
Speaker 2:So people weren't willing, like these banks weren't willing to lend money on these kind of places when they first started, and luckily, a gal who was on her way up north, driving up highway 65, uh popped in, she's from the banking world and and just started asking questions and and she's like, you know, I'll talk to my boss, but I think, uh, I think we'll finance them and that's been, you know, a 20-year relationship now where they've they've been willing to treat you know that type of construction the same as conventional construction and, of course, now that everybody's on the bandwagon, everybody's on the bandwagon, yeah right, so financing now is a non-issue, if If you were to say, like put a conventional stick-built house next to the comparable barn dominium version of it, what would be the price comparison between the two?
Speaker 2:The barn dough will be more expensive because in a conventional house there's not a lot to get excited about. You've seen it all. It's all the same as your neighbors, it's nothing. But as soon as you start the barn dough process and you see the possibilities, you dig deeper into your pockets and you find more so that you can have more. No, I'm just kidding. That has happened and it does happen. But I mean, if you're truly talking about apples to apples, I mean there might be about a 20% difference.
Speaker 1:More on the Barn Dominium side.
Speaker 2:Savings on the Barn Do side.
Speaker 1:Savings on the Barn. Do side, if you were to do it comparably.
Speaker 2:Correct If you would take the same floor plan, same finishes, same everything.
Speaker 1:Really, yeah, for sure, I've always been told that they're a lot more expensive and that's kind of like the general thought.
Speaker 2:But that was the story I told. Yeah, once you get involved and you see all the possibilities.
Speaker 1:Because you can literally do anything. There's a lot to get excited about.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, they do end up spending, you know, typically way more than they intended to, Because they see the value in it right, yeah. Oh, for this much money I can get this many more square feet, or I can have a bigger kitchen, an extra bathroom.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I suppose it's just not that easy on a stick. Build house because you're getting into structural engineering. Basically in a barn, you can design this box however you want. Yeah.
Speaker 2:The truth is, you can in a conventional house too, but there's just too much conventional thought processes that tie people up psychologically Like, oh, this is how this is done, this is how this is done. And when you switch to a barn doe and you've been told, well, you can do anything you want, well, that's when they believe you. You can do anything you want.
Speaker 1:You can always do anything you want.
Speaker 2:It's just easier to accept that reality when it's a barn doe, because there's not decades of shit that's been burned into people's brains about what their limitations are. No, there are no limitations Do whatever you want, that's deep.
Speaker 1:That's very philosophical of you. Now take all my money.
Speaker 3:How long has Sherman been in business? For how many years?
Speaker 2:Since 1976. Yeah, now that's on the fine print on the billboards. How many years? Since 1976. Yeah, now that's on the fine print on the billboards Quality erections since 1976.
Speaker 3:So in your time and with your experience with the company, how has materials and techniques changed over time? I can only assume things in the 70s were done a little bit different than they are now. Yeah for sure. Materials. So what you see on the outside, the steel skin that covers the walls and the roof.
Speaker 2:The 70s were done a little bit different than they are now, yeah for sure, uh, materials. So what you see on the outside, the, the steel uh skin that's on um covers the, the walls on the roof. Uh yeah, back in the 70s and and well into the 80s, uh, trims were very limited. Uh, the first buildings, you just, instead of having a nice finished corner to make the transition from roof to wall, you just leave the, the roof steel a little bit longer and just kind of roll it over and fold it, fold it onto the wall, you know, drive some lead nails through it to hold it down.
Speaker 2:Ridges were just, you know, kind of bent over. You didn't, you didn't terminate at this corner and this corner and then put a trim piece on. You just kind of folded it over and kept going Right. And then put a trim piece on. You just kind of folded it over and kept going right. Sizes, varieties, colors, textures, profile shapes were extremely limited. Steel links came in two-foot increments. So if you wanted an odd-sized building you had to pay for the next two-foot increment up.
Speaker 1:Oh sure and recycling wasn't a big thing back then either, so it just went into the landfill or someplace. Or a hole.
Speaker 3:Dig a hole, or a chicken coop, or whatever, I'm sure the evolution of tools, too, has made just the on-site work night and day different.
Speaker 2:Yeah for sure. So as the product became more popular, so did all of the materials to accomplish it got more sophisticated and more available. When you're building a shed 10 or 15 feet away from a home, you don't want them to be too contrasting in their finished material. Herb appeal, so it's come a long ways. And tools yeah. There's a lot of stuff out there and some of it is worthwhile.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of it's snake oil.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I can cut steel with old-fashioned tin snips faster and more accurately than you can with a fancy $2,000 tool.
Speaker 1:Hot take. I feel like that's the thing you have to have this new tool like it's.
Speaker 2:like that's the thing you have to have this new tool, otherwise it's not as efficient yeah, sure, I mean it replaces knowledge and experience, uh, but if you have knowledge, experience, yeah, you cut it with your teeth and do it okay.
Speaker 1:So what's the deal? When I'm driving down the road, I see these barns that have a like white strip on both sides on the tin separating the side. Why is that?
Speaker 2:it was like a 70s uh fashion thing really. I mean that that's literally all it was um, skip, uh. So if your background color, primary color, is red, uh, you might have a white corner, your first piece of steel red and then whoa, let's do the next piece white, they go back to red and terminate. You know, have the same pattern, you know, on all the corners. So yeah, it's definitely a fad thing.
Speaker 2:That happened for a while and in fact my wife and I just bought a piece of property that had a pole building on it. It has a pole building on it and we looked at the property several times and I didn't really pay attention to the shed that much to go look at it to see if it was a Sherman. And it wasn't until, I think, our third visit out to the property that I really stopped to look at the shed and I'm like holy shit, this is a Sherman. And I never considered that it was, because it was exactly what you're saying. It had those accent stripes on it and we almost never did that because we thought it was so silly and it was going to date the building so badly. But obviously if somebody wanted it we weren't going to say no to them, but sure enough, it's actually a Sherman.
Speaker 1:That's so funny. How do you know, by the way, that it's built?
Speaker 2:Well, you look for indications that would disqualify it right. So at first, the farther away you are right you can't tell the difference. But as you get closer and you start to look at more details, the way that the windows are framed, the way that the service door this one happens to have a sliding door just all of the little details of construction, and if you can't see one that disqualifies it as a Sherman methodology, well then it's a Sherman. But I mean, we've had to go out people making false warranty claims. And you have to go out there because if the property changes hands, we we still try to service that building right. And uh, go out there and look at it and it's like, all right, I know for positive because we we have really really good records back to 1999. But before that, uh, you know they're in boxes or you know who the hell knows where, where those?
Speaker 2:records are so we don't have a lot of good stuff to go back and see if it is for sure. But if we go and physically look at it we can see certain details that we know we've never done that 10,000, 20,000 buildings. I don't know how many it is, but not one of them ever had that detail.
Speaker 1:Yeah, has there ever been a scenario where you were like, yeah, we didn't make this and, yes, you did?
Speaker 2:no, we did not, and here's why yeah, yeah, yeah, um, I mean not a lot probably I. I remember it happening at least two or three times, yeah, where somebody was trying to say that that's a sherman.
Speaker 1:I was like, well, okay, it's not, it's not, we're not fixing it, but we'll build you a new one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, um and it's not even just. You know just about who's responsible or whatever. It's just like I. I didn't build it because I know you know, some particular detail was something or a brand, a brand of steel or a brand of door that you just don't use.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that makes sense. Yeah, um, so you guys have been going since 1976. Who started sherman pole buildings?
Speaker 2:um, my dad did um, and so our last name family name is kelling, but my mother's name is sherman, so so the family decided to use that name instead of Kelling. It's just for marketing, it's easier to use.
Speaker 1:Sherman sounds better than Kelling. That was all it came down to.
Speaker 2:Well, I wouldn't say it sounds better, it's just easier to recognize. I mean, if you hear it once or twice it's going to start to stick. And honestly, back then, when everybody had a phone book and they would just flip through and see your name and your address, we didn't really like the idea of having our business name the same as our last name. And then anybody with you know, found a box of shells and a and a bad attitude could find your address that easily.
Speaker 1:No, that's a that's a good point. So this is coming from the idea that, like I don't even want to be in the same relative vicinity, in the directory of the thing was there ever a thought like if we sell this, we don't want us to be the business, we want the business to be the business.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean so. Maybe it sounds like I'm being a hypocrite here but yeah, we do live and breathe our business. But a lot of us live very, very close, live very, very close. In fact, where the lumber yard sits, it is on a 20-acre piece of property that my parents bought and they built a house on that property with the business, and then my older brother and I each had homes on the same property. So we really never had a choice.
Speaker 2:We could never get away and then when the business name is the same as your name.
Speaker 1:You know, not only are you physically close, but you're easy to track down yeah because the mailboxes are all the same right and it is a small enough town, so obviously everyone already knows locally yeah but I could see what you're saying.
Speaker 2:It was just one layer of separation. Should we ever feel the need, hey, how about it's Christmas and we all just chill out and we don't have to be on our phones or be in meetings all day today because it's Christmas?
Speaker 1:Yeah, how much of that grind mentality actually contributes to success when it comes to building a construction business. At what point is it, you know, safe or healthy to be like, hey, let's just not work right now, because I mean, obviously it's no secret. Like if you want to grow, you have to do that.
Speaker 2:but at what point do you stop and be like, hey, you can't, I don't know it's tough, because everything is a slippery slope, right, whether you're going falling uphill or falling downhill, you know, there's always momentum. And as soon as you say, yeah, you know I think we're good, yep, yep, we're at this size, we're at this comfort level, let's just try to coast. Comfort level, let's just try to coast. You know, I'm sure that if you're just, you know, years away from retirement and you don't have any succession plans or next generations coming up, that's where most businesses end, and there's no such thing as an eternal business.
Speaker 2:They all end sometime and you reach that point and it's like, okay, well, what do I have to sell now? What do I have as my retirement, the body of my life's work? What does it amount to? Well, if I'm going to retire in two years, I don't have any kids, I don't have any succession plan, then it's a fire auction. You sell the assets for their salvage value and the show's over. And so what drives us to keep going is, if there are kids, if there are grandkids, if there's anybody else that's ever interested, well, we want to. What do you want your next generation to inherit? A bunch of debt and a shit show or a good system with promise and opportunity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess that goes into makes me think, like you personally. Then how do you want to be known for future generations after you're gone? Do you think you want to be known as the Sherman guy, or what else? What do you want to be known for?
Speaker 2:I mean I'll be dead, so it doesn't really matter, it goes one of either way.
Speaker 1:Someone's like this is my legacy, or I don't even get a shit.
Speaker 2:Would that be cool if they built a statue and you know my honor and you know worshiped it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Right at the yard. It's not like I'm going to appreciate it.
Speaker 2:I'm going to appreciate it. I'm going to be dead. That's a good point. No, I just want them to have opportunity and, more importantly, to know that there's opportunity, whether it's with this family, business or anywhere in life. One of the saddest things to witness is someone who doesn't think that they have options or opportunity, and almost everybody does. I'm sure there's a handful of you know somebody will point out. Well, this person doesn't. But for the most part, we all have opportunity.
Speaker 1:How much of that is circumstantial versus self-inflicted?
Speaker 2:Yeah, luck is a big factor. I mean, I'm not arrogant enough to think that we manifested everything about it. Being in the right place at the right time is certainly helpful, but there are prerequisites. Right Working hard is just a prerequisite. You have to be willing to do that. You have to have a certain amount of humility and willingness and pleasantness for people to help you, because you're not going to get anywhere without people helping you.
Speaker 1:And if you're just a complete asshole 24-7,.
Speaker 2:nobody's going to help you, so you have to have all of those things that are somewhat within your control to be ready. If you don't show up for the game, how are you going?
Speaker 3:to win.
Speaker 2:And those are all just things that are necessary ingredients, but they don't guarantee it right? If I was thinking about this the other day, if hard work alone was all that it took, if hard work alone was all that it took, the citizens of third world countries might be the wealthiest people on the planet, because every once in a while you watch a video of some dude or dudes just working their ass off, thinking, oh my God, I couldn't keep that up for 10 minutes, and they do it seven days a week for a lifetime. So don't tell me hard work is the key to success, because there are billions of people that work way harder than I've ever worked a minute in my life.
Speaker 1:I think everyone stumbled across a good 3am rabbit hole of people building a pool in the middle of a jungle with hand tools.
Speaker 3:That was my first thought a little filipino boy with the stick carving out a full pool and it looks incredible.
Speaker 1:By the end it's like, yeah, that here would be a hundred thousand dollar piece of architecture in someone's backyard he's taking craftsmanship and skill, combining it with hard work in horrible conditions with limited resources, and building something beautiful.
Speaker 2:And you're going to tell me that you live in America and there's nothing out there.
Speaker 1:You just yeah it's.
Speaker 3:I got no opportunity. Go knock on some doors or something.
Speaker 1:It's preparation meeting opportunity. Yeah, like these also, these people make let's not even church this up like these people make amazing money off of the views that they get from these videos. I actually just watched a video about this recently, talking about how, like, how many tens of thousands of dollars they make when they post a video because of how many views they get now but originally, when they're starting out like making no money oh yeah making this for nobody other than themselves.
Speaker 1:I guess I don't know if they're paid to make this or not. I would assume not.
Speaker 2:Oh, in some circumstances. But when you see a video of a brick factory where they're hand-making, real brick.
Speaker 1:This is not real brick, by the way.
Speaker 2:They retail for like a penny a piece, right? So how much do you think that guy is making? It's a whole factory or a whole room full of these. You know people make hand making these bricks. They're getting paid far less than a penny a piece for them, seven days a week uh, yeah that's not a video that's going viral that any of those workers are seeing a nickel from probably not a lot of a lot of cameras in that factory either that they're pumping these things out.
Speaker 1:There's not a lot of pride in that, I would think right, I'm really proud of this brick here.
Speaker 2:So that's, that's two different worlds. The guy who sets up his camera in the jungle to build that pool that you're talking about, yeah, well, that's, that's for that purpose. But just somebody taking uh, uh, 15 seconds, 10 or 15 seconds in you know one of those environments where they're making something with hard, hard labor that doesn't have a lot of value, they're not making vases, vases, vases Very fancy of you, vases, very fancy for tens of thousands of dollars. They're making a brick.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, very true, very true. And that's something to be said about just business in general too.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:If you build a quality product, it's going to be worth more If you're building a sheen shed.
Speaker 2:So now you take all of those prerequisites and you apply them to something that has value. You apply all that effort to something that the world wants or needs. Effort to something that the world wants or needs. Right that there's a huge difference too, then? Oh, I'm doing this for myself, because I love art, you know yeah well, great, maybe you know a hundred years after you're dead. Tiffany is a little auction. It for a million dollars, right?
Speaker 1:right. Well, that was like something that I found interesting about finding out that picasso died in like the 70s or whatever you know. Yeah, first off, I thought this guy was like way older, you know, and uh, it was rumored that, uh, or maybe it was Van Gogh. Yeah, it was Van Gogh that like basically sold no paintings while he was alive yeah, dirt poor, his entire life died, not being successful, and now his paintings are worth millions. Yeah, you know how much of that translates over to what you take on building pole sheds. Do you think that there's a timeless aspect to it? Or, like, what's the future of the business when you're designing and building some of these things?
Speaker 2:um, well, kind of like, what I was saying before was um, I'll be dead, so it won't matter a whole lot to me, but before I die, I want them to have that opportunity. And if they squander it all and, um, change the routines, uh, drop the commitment, uh, or try to coast through it and lose it all, well, that's on them. Uh. If they want to perpetuate it to the next level, for one more generation, great. And then it's the question of the next generation or the next. I mean, nothing lasts forever. As much as you'd like to fantasize about building something that's going to last a millennial, great.
Speaker 2:Right Good luck If it does. But each generation has that responsibility. You know themselves. Whatever you start with a little or a lot, um you know it's up to that generation to figure out how to what to do with it.
Speaker 1:What do you think is harder trying to run a pole building company or building the pole sheds themselves?
Speaker 2:Oh, I love building sheds. There's like there's no thinking involved. You know to that uh, um, once you reach a certain point, um, after you've been doing it, you know 25, 30 years it's just pure joy, you, you play music that you know it's not too loud depending upon the neighborhood that you're at uh, and you just do what you've been doing since you know, before kindergarten yeah that's the story I tell as I put in the puzzle together my mom, because she made me go to kindergarten and all I wanted to do is go build a shed.
Speaker 2:How?
Speaker 3:how often are you jumping back in with the crew these days?
Speaker 2:not very, not very often do you every?
Speaker 3:once in a while, you ever get the hands dirty, so currently I reserve my tool belt for uh volunteer work.
Speaker 2:Mostly we support the uh, the canada county ag society sure that puts on the fair in in mora and that's that's where I put my tool belt on.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's a good balance. Know you got to get back out there and yeah, I, I mean I probably should.
Speaker 2:I could spend less time in the gym if I just wore my tool belt in real life doing real work every once in a while, um for sure.
Speaker 2:But, um, it's easy to get lost in the field, right, because you can. You can say you know, I'm going to leave my phone in my truck. Everybody's just going to have to wait to get back to me until the end of the day because I'm doing, you know, I'm building a shed. I'm doing really important work right now. It's easy to use that as a justification for just getting lost in the you know fun, beautiful experience of building a shed. And but then really, uh, are you just neglecting you know all of your other responsibilities? Because when you have 80 employees, uh, that's, that's fun to say and to have, but you have a responsibility to each one of them too. If they need something and you're the guy that can solve a problem, or answer a question, uh, or help move something along, you have to be available for them right now.
Speaker 1:I mean, well, going back to that same thought process too. Like you haven't always worked at sherman, you stepped away to go do your own thing. You've done multiple ventures outside of sherman yeah, yeah mean never too far away. Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um so during the housing crash, um, I worked for a friend in his uh media company for uh almost two years. Um then, uh, my wife and I and uh two of my siblings went to Northern California and built fitness clubs. And then I really love big trucks, I think they're super cool, so I started a trucking company it's a horrible idea and we did over-the-road trucking and then eventually did some work in the oil fields in North Dakota and Texas.
Speaker 1:What possessed you to get out of the family business to go do your own thing?
Speaker 2:Well, during all of that, my kids were either too young or the oldest was in college and doing his own thing, and so I didn't know what the next generation was going to look like, and during the housing crash, during that recession, I wanted to keep as many key people in place, you know, in the optimism that someday you know work was going to bounce back, so I just removed myself and let other people keep their positions, rather than laying people off.
Speaker 2:Other than that, it's once the kids came back, though, or now I have two. Two of my our three boys are there.
Speaker 3:Now it feels like I have a real purpose for why to stay there, to stay focused on definitely was there an expectation in your household to work for sherman, or was it pretty open to do whatever you want?
Speaker 2:no, no, um, and more so. The expectation was, if you're going to work here, you better bring something unique and special to the table. Um, go to college or go get some other life experience that you can, uh, bring back, and not be like the uh, uh, the guys that ride around in the buggies, the Amish.
Speaker 2:You know if if we're not diverse enough, if we don't have enough experience outside our little bubble, then how do we gain from you know uh, other knowledge and other experience? So yeah, go out, figure out something new, something unique to bring back.
Speaker 3:Was there any part of you when your own children started working there, with you having the position that you are at Sherman? Were you worried at all that they would almost feel like?
Speaker 2:Assassinated me to take over.
Speaker 3:More of where. Like you know oh, my dad's the big wig around here Were you worried that that was going to be an attitude that was brought into the workplace?
Speaker 2:That's necessary. It's absolutely necessary, uh, because if they were, uh, you know, too arrogant or cocky about it, um, you know the the world of of safe places in school. You know where you can't bully, that that doesn't, that doesn't exist outside of school property. So I talked about that before too. In earning respect, and if you want respect, you have to give it first of all, and then you have to produce something or demonstrate something to earn it back. So, yeah, if they walked in too arrogant or thinking this is my dad's place, Good luck with that, because, if anything, they're probably treated more harshly than any other
Speaker 3:new guy because of that.
Speaker 2:Because it's obvious. I mean there's a target on their back, and so when they fuck up, everybody knows about it. And I fuck up constantly, my kids fuck up constantly, we all do, and it doesn't matter who you are. You need to be called out for it so that you can learn and try better next time.
Speaker 1:So, actually, before we end this thing, I wanted to show you this photo that actually that we found, and we were told that you were actually in a rock band in high school and we found this image of you while you were in this band. How come you didn't pursue this dream of being a rock star?
Speaker 2:there's early there's one reason, and one reason only, for singing and playing the guitar, and it's to get girls. And uh, I was lucky enough to get one um at a at a young age.
Speaker 3:Met my wife when we were in high school was it the band that helped you make it 100?
Speaker 2:she will deny it she claimed she never saw any of our uh, any of our concerts, never went to any of our shows, but but I know for a fact she was there.
Speaker 1:She got ratted out. She was a hardcore fan.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it worked, it did its job, and I haven't played guitar since you met your wife. Retired the pick. Now if she smartens up and leaves me someday, guess who's gonna learn how to play guitar again and has two thumbs this guy that's funny.
Speaker 1:Well, before we end this thing, is there any piece of knowledge that you could drop on someone that has a dream of owning a construction business themselves?
Speaker 2:yeah, acceptance that you don't know anything and I really I don't know anything, but there's this thing called books or things called books.
Speaker 1:Read them, study them.
Speaker 2:Because what you and I can discuss and discover here today, or in a lifetime of hanging out, is nothing compared to what's out there. Now we have the convenience of YouTube and you know all of the internet, but just learn, just hold your opinions lightly with your fingertips so they can be easily challenged and replaced with better opinions and better ideas, Because in one lifetime you can never learn everything that can help you, so read learn.
Speaker 1:Boom, that's all you need to do. Youtube it if you have to, if you can't read.
Speaker 3:With ChatGPT. That's almost a little too close to home.
Speaker 1:Everyone's going to stop learning how to read and even quit learning how to look something up on Google and just start typing it into ChatGP.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but when written language first came out, that was the big fear was that people were going to forget how to tell stories. Right, because you don't need to tell a story anymore, it's just written. So every generation of technology, something is potentially lost, but the society is still perpetuating, we're still growing and we're going to be dead, so we don't even care about it.
Speaker 1:Let them figure it out. All right, steve? Thank you so much for coming on. We will see you next time.
Speaker 2:All right, sounds great, thank you.
